Thanks to both Salina and MJH for posting responses to my post a few days ago. I wanted to respond to both of them and "adjust" what I said last time.
First, mostly in response to Salina - I do think that disciplining other people's children is such a tough subject. Like you, I'd like to think that if I didn't witness my child doing something, I would have no problem with a parent attempting to discipline her. But, that being said, you hit it on the nail when you admitted that you were more fearful of what you were doing when you actually had to physically *touch* the boy you were talking to. I say that I would have no problem with a parent who witnessed something happen disciplining my child, but that's making one big assumption: that their form of disciplining closely matches mine. If a parent were to spank my child or even aggressively pull her over to force an apology out of her, I would be pissed.
Likewise, with MJH's example, if that parent didn't actually witness anything herself either, I'd be pissed. I'd be curious to know how MJH feels about other parents attempting to discipline his son #2. Is it a relief for him? MJH, you mentioned that your son has to experience things himself and tends to not believe it when you tell him something. Does that mean he'd believe it more if it came out of the mouth of another child's parent? Would that upset you?
Now, in response to MJH's post, I agree that it was wrong of me to assume that the boy's foul language came from his parents. It could have just as easily come from older children, school or even TV. I guess there are aspects of my family's history that make it easy for me to automatically assume something is wrong domestically.
I feel like if I were the mother in your example, I never would have suggested how you handled your son. I think that you, as your son's parent, should know what happened (though I realize in your specific example, she didn't know either), but beyond that I don't think it's any of my business. From my perspective, I feel like it is my place to make sure that my children see that I can and will stand up for them (if needed) - beyond that it's totally up to you how you deal with the information of what your son did.
I definitely liked how you didn't get mad at your son right away. I liked how you told the mother that you'd talk to him. I like that you wanted to get his perspective on what happened because that just seems to show your son that you respect him. On the other hand, I also like that you don't automatically assume that your son is telling the truth. I'm sure many parents fall into that trap. Having your older son earn your trust and then standing up for #2 seemed like a nice fit.
In the end, I think that *if* the boy's parents had gotten mad at Salina for how she reacted, then she had every right to say "I'm sorry you feel that way, but you did not see what happened." And I think that the mother in MJH's example went overboard by telling him how he should discipline his child. Forget the fact that she fell into the trap I mentioned before, of automatically assuming her child was innocent, and then to not do anything herself to try to keep her daughter away from your son... I think that even if I was convinced that my daughter did nothing wrong, I would try to make sure she stayed away from the "boy who hit her."
So... when situations like this arise, do we kindly discipline the child or do we tell the parents about the situation from our perspective and leave it up to them?
2 comments:
Thanks for the kind words. I will discipline and correct children whom I know. And I will discipline and correct children whom I don't know if they're action is impacting my children. But if there's a kid that I don't know that is doing something to another kid that I don't know, I will tend to stay out of it - unless, of course, one or the other is likely to get injured.
I truly loathe the phrase "it takes a village", but I do think raising a child requires leadership from more than just two adults. And amongst my friends and our neighbors, we have earned each other's trust. So we feel comfortable with each other's correction of our children. Other people whom I don't know, *should* be very suspect if I'm correcting their children. So I try not to cross that boundary.
As far as the woman in my story, I don't think she's a bad person. In fact, I think her actions were entirely understandable given the circumstances: her child was hurt. She believed it was my child that did it. And after gathering the initial facts, I believed it was my child that did it, too.
The point is that we each acted on our beliefs. She went into protection mode. Fight or flight is a real human reaction. When she later calmed down, she was very reasonable. At that point she was in information gathering mode, and her fight/flight instinct was not engaged. So she was much more open to considering other perspectives.
The point of my post was not to make anyone the bad guy. But just that there's another perspective. And frequently the same events result in completely different lessons depending on the perspective you have. And that's why humility is so important. Without it, it's hard to even contemplate that there's another perspective.
One of my favorite all time TV shows is the short lived NBC series Boomtown. It did a great job of teaching the importance of perspective.
$0.02
I guess I should actually answer some of the questions you asked:
1) Other parents whom I know and trust are free to discipline my children in exactly the same way I am free to discipline theirs. Other parents whom I don't know had better be careful - in exactly the same way that I am careful when I have to intervene with a strange kid.
2) No it's not a relief. It's embarrassing. My wife & I are responsible for our children's behavior. And when they misbehave, and someone else has to deal with it, I feel like a horrible parent. Like somehow my child doesn't have his own will, and his behavior really is a reflection of me. That's how I feel. Rationally, I know that's not true, but I can't escape the fear that the other parent is quietly condemning my parenting, and not my child's behavior.
3) When I say my son #2 is an experiential learner, what I mean is that no one's words will convince him. He has to experience the consequences (good or bad) of his actions directly. In fact, he's likely to try to push buttons even harder with adults who aren't us. After several times where exactly what we predicted would happen, has happened, he's coming around to trusting our words... at least a little. Someone else, he assumes they have no credibility.
4) When this situation arises, I think we kindly (heavy emphasis on kindly) discipline that child. When I do it, my first priority is to get the behavior to stop. But after that's done, I will often leave it with a thinking question like: "Wow, you really don't like having friends do you? Because, that kind of behavior is not very good for making friends." Almost always my last words are, "Well good luck." I've not found a lot of parents who have been offended when I'm simply relaying my experiences rather than directly telling their kid what to do.
In fact, even when I'm actively intervening, I will often state it in terms of what I'll do, rather than what the kid needs to do. So instead of, "Don't do that to my child." I'll say in a firm voice "Excuse me! I am going to check on my child now." Or something like that.
Most people (including kids) gristle at being told what to do. And most parents gristle at someone they don't trust telling their kids what to do. I've learned that I'm too lazy, and it's easier if I don't have to deal with that reaction.
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